We have a very small experimental theater that's currently set up in a thrust formation. The stage is 24'x12' with about 8' of audience seating on three sides of the stage. One of the hitches is there is an 8' ceiling. Currently, we have 6" fresnels mounted somewhat haphazardly to try to achieve some kind of general illumination. We are interested in purchasing four or five 11" Vivids to use as front light. The productions in that space are pretty low tech and most of the lighting needs to be predominantly from the front. The question is, will this give a decent wash? Are four fixtures enough? We have a Smartfade controller. Do we need an optical splitter? Would the Smartfade handle these easily? We have never used it on non-traditional instruments. Is there a particular LED model that would work better for this installation?
Automated Fixtures Vivid 11" as front lighting
- Thread starterdrankin
- Start date
The Selador Vivid is designed to provide deep saturation to mid saturation colors. It can do whites and pastels, but not as effectively as a Lustr or, the most suitable Selador for your situation, the Paletta.
Now, here are the questions.
What is your current throw distance for the 6" Fresnels? Can you move them back at all?
Are you currently using 5 - 6 Fresnels which you plan on replacing with LED, or are you going to use the LED with the Fresnels? This sounds like a situation where you might be better off just buying more Fresnels. If its coverage that is the issue, whatever 4 or 5 instrument you purchase aren't going to give you satisfactory results if you don't have enough instruments in the first place.
In addition, and this always has to be said with LEDs, they are expensive. I would assume your group is aware of this, but just in case, along with LED instruments there is the required DMX cable and power cable. LEDs CANNOT be run off of circuits connected to a dimmer.
In short, it sounds to me like what you need is MORE instruments, not necessarily more high tech instruments.
Now, here are the questions.
What is your current throw distance for the 6" Fresnels? Can you move them back at all?
Are you currently using 5 - 6 Fresnels which you plan on replacing with LED, or are you going to use the LED with the Fresnels? This sounds like a situation where you might be better off just buying more Fresnels. If its coverage that is the issue, whatever 4 or 5 instrument you purchase aren't going to give you satisfactory results if you don't have enough instruments in the first place.
In addition, and this always has to be said with LEDs, they are expensive. I would assume your group is aware of this, but just in case, along with LED instruments there is the required DMX cable and power cable. LEDs CANNOT be run off of circuits connected to a dimmer.
In short, it sounds to me like what you need is MORE instruments, not necessarily more high tech instruments.
Selador Vivid 11 is a very nice fixture. However, they aren't the sort of thing that I would use for front washes personally. They do color excellently, but their white, despite what they may say, doesn't really match all that well up to tungsten. The amount of light is debatable, according to ETC it has very similar photometrics to a Source Four 50 Degree with HPL575, but I'm not sure whether four of these would be enough to get decent washes.
My personal advice? If you have access to the electricity, invest in a few PAR cans or fresnels, as you can get them for a pretty decent price, and they'll give a decent amount of light as well.
Vivid Series:
http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/datashts/7400L1001_Selador_Vivid_SpcSht_vC.pdf
Photometrics tester for ETC Source Four. Very similar to S4 50 Degree
http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/metrics.html
My personal advice? If you have access to the electricity, invest in a few PAR cans or fresnels, as you can get them for a pretty decent price, and they'll give a decent amount of light as well.
Vivid Series:
http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/datashts/7400L1001_Selador_Vivid_SpcSht_vC.pdf
Photometrics tester for ETC Source Four. Very similar to S4 50 Degree
http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/metrics.html
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So the room is something like this?
The 8' ceiling is certainly the most challenging factor, and thus you're limited to many more fixtures or a very flat vertical angle of elevation.
Rather than the Vivid 11", you might look into the Desire D40, but with either one, you're going to want the widest spread lens(es) available. As to "Would the Smartfade handle these easily?" I'd say no, not easily at all, unless it is a SmartFadeML. When dealing with a fixture that has that many parameter s (8=7 colors plus 1 intensity), you need a console that supports personality profile s. Furthermore, many people have difficulty comprehending the concept of color mixing with just RGB, let alone Red, Red-Org, Amb, Grn, Cyn, Blu, and Indigo. Of course more color sources provide more available colors and color rendering, but also more control complexity. Furthermore, metamerism shows us one can create two colors that appear the same on a white object, but completely different on a colored object.
As for other LED fixtures, while nothing rivals the Seladors in terms of color and intensity, I'd look at flat panel ColorBlast-type RGBA/RGBW units, which win in terms of size, ease of control, and cost. No RGB fixture is going to provide CRI comparable to a 6"Fresnel. Be aware also that most of the lesser-cost LED fixtures are optimized to have a narrow angle (exactly what you don't want) so as to appear to have more intensity. You'll likely need to experiment/fabricate a diffusion method. Results using standard theatrical diffusion media (frost) have not proven very successful with LED units.
It's aesthetics vs. fiscal responsibility vs. practicality, but I just can't rationalize putting $1000 fixtures in a room that seats 100 and has an 8' ceiling, especially as you stated "The productions in that space are pretty low tech."
EDIT: Posted concurrently with the above.
The 8' ceiling is certainly the most challenging factor, and thus you're limited to many more fixtures or a very flat vertical angle of elevation.
Rather than the Vivid 11", you might look into the Desire D40, but with either one, you're going to want the widest spread lens(es) available. As to "Would the Smartfade handle these easily?" I'd say no, not easily at all, unless it is a SmartFadeML. When dealing with a fixture that has that many parameter s (8=7 colors plus 1 intensity), you need a console that supports personality profile s. Furthermore, many people have difficulty comprehending the concept of color mixing with just RGB, let alone Red, Red-Org, Amb, Grn, Cyn, Blu, and Indigo. Of course more color sources provide more available colors and color rendering, but also more control complexity. Furthermore, metamerism shows us one can create two colors that appear the same on a white object, but completely different on a colored object.
As for other LED fixtures, while nothing rivals the Seladors in terms of color and intensity, I'd look at flat panel ColorBlast-type RGBA/RGBW units, which win in terms of size, ease of control, and cost. No RGB fixture is going to provide CRI comparable to a 6"Fresnel. Be aware also that most of the lesser-cost LED fixtures are optimized to have a narrow angle (exactly what you don't want) so as to appear to have more intensity. You'll likely need to experiment/fabricate a diffusion method. Results using standard theatrical diffusion media (frost) have not proven very successful with LED units.
It's aesthetics vs. fiscal responsibility vs. practicality, but I just can't rationalize putting $1000 fixtures in a room that seats 100 and has an 8' ceiling, especially as you stated "The productions in that space are pretty low tech."
EDIT: Posted concurrently with the above.
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These are some great responses. To elaborate a bit more, we will probably continue to use the existing fresnels. We tend to do a lot of simple productions like one-acts. We currently have almost no way of doing more than a warm wash and a cool wash. If we can add a dedicated way of changing the color temperature for a specific production or to do a quick special effect, this might be an option. We have the money left in the budget and we want to start experiment with intelligent fixtures since our department currently has only a StudioSpot 250. I need to check whether our Smartfade is the ML since I've only used it once. But for most productions, currently cues are simply warm or cool wash on or off. With the basic Smartfade, could we control four 11" Vivids in addition to maybe four to eight areas using conventional instruments?
The room layout is almost exactly what the horizontal/vertical section shows.
If your Smart Fade is in two-scene preset mode, you could control 4 zones plus the Vivids, so long as all the vivids are programmed that you cannot control each one individually, that they all do the exact same thing at the exact same time. If you wish to do this, simply put it so that each one is at the same start address. If you are in normal (non-crossfade) mode, you have 48 channels and this should easily be enough to control every factor of every Vivid. If your SmartFade isn't the 1248 (which my above calculations are for), this should be different.
Since you said you have a Studio Spot 250, you should also factor in the 15 (18 for Studio Color) channels that it will take up.
Pardon my asking, but how did you come into possession of such a high end (bad pun) unit as a Studio Spot when the rest of your rig is so small and low tech?
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We purchased the StudioSpot several years ago with some leftover money. We got it mostly to experiment with and to demonstrate to students how automated fixtures work. We have never used it in a production and likely wouldn't use it in the facility under discussion. I'm guessing we would not need individual control for the LED fixtures if we purchase them--they would be for wash only.
shiben
Well-Known Member
Well, I tend to think that going to LED fixtures in an experimental theatre is a bit silly... Why not just find some more PARs and Fresnels and old Lekos in the basement under the mainstage and up in the catwalks, etc. Heck, up until a year ago, we could have outfited an entire 3rd space with its own inventory with stuff that was gathering dust... Then some dupe threw it all away because it was "worthless"... I mean seriously, who throws out 50 360s, 12 Shakespears, 30 old fresnels, 6 scoops and a couple dozen pars? Anyhow, see if there is anywhere like that around you, then spend some of your money on diming and fixing up your older fixtures. Perhaps when thats done, You might have some cash left over for some less expensive LED PARs... Also, perhaps look into upgrading from the Smartfade if your going to do LEDs? Never really used one, but seems a bit underwhelming, especially for what an Element or Ion can do for you.
One could also assign each fixture a unique address, but softpatch them into the same control channels at the console. This method avoids having to get to the fixture if you later want to control them individually. And mark my words, as soon as you make the conscious decision to gang the fixtures together, 27 people are going to come running up to you with reasons why they absolutely MUST have the stage right red and stage left blue, or some such. Always keep control absolutely as flexible as possible.
20/20 hindsight and all that, but perhaps the money would have been better spent on a Right Arm or I-Cue, scroller, gobo rotator, etc.? --the very foundation of The Gafftaper Doctrine. drankin, you're new, so I won't harp on that too much. But here's an idea for demonstrating your StudioSpot250: buy the MagicDMX dongle for $16, download MagicQ onto any old computer, and teach the students how ML programming/control is actually done.
We have a fairly large inventory of Source Fours and other newer instruments in our main theater. We never got into color scrollers or other equipment of that type. But now because that is on its way to obsolescence, we would like to start experimenting with LEDs, etc. We don't always use the small studio theater, so we might move the newer fixtures into our main theater for some productions. I have to admit that some of this is selfish as I want to try to keep a little more current on how to use emerging technologies. I am interested in experimenting with Right Arms, etc. and we likely can start investing in those things in the near future.
Among all the issues, the main one will be color rendition. Even using a Pearl, which is the "white light" Selador, the quality of the "white" light out from about any LED might not be the best for lighting faces.
I demo'd a Pearl this past year, as a potential no color top/down wash unit for a music dept. space. I liked the fixture, especially the assorted plastic lens systems for beam control, but found the white to be too harsh and having poor rendition of colors in wavelengths outside of the very narrow range the particular LED's provided. It was a decidedly less warm white then an incandescent and not particularly flattering on the face. It was bright though, easily as punchy as an S4 par @575, but not quite as bright as the 750w.
And they are expensive at somewhere near $1100- $1200 ea.
I demo'd a Pearl this past year, as a potential no color top/down wash unit for a music dept. space. I liked the fixture, especially the assorted plastic lens systems for beam control, but found the white to be too harsh and having poor rendition of colors in wavelengths outside of the very narrow range the particular LED's provided. It was a decidedly less warm white then an incandescent and not particularly flattering on the face. It was bright though, easily as punchy as an S4 par @575, but not quite as bright as the 750w.
And they are expensive at somewhere near $1100- $1200 ea.
Scrollers are not obsolete quite yet, as many designers in smaller/regional/university/highly professional theaters still use them, and in many of your recent MLs, you have color wheels, which function the same way. Right arms/Icues are used the same way as the Pan/Tilt function on even the most high tech MLs. Seachangers function the same way as CMY in MLs, and they can do amazing stuff with Source Fours. I'd take a Seachanger in a Source Four with an ICue any day over some of those middle of the road MLs.
As for LED mixing and RGB and such, it's definitely something which you could invest a little to learn. You could even shell out a little for some lower quality LED Pars, like Elation Opti RGBs, if you only plan on using them for training purposes.
It turns out we have a plain old SmartFade 24/48 controller. If we do want to try some LED fixtures, will we need an opto-splitter so we can continue to send DMX to our dimmers and send separate control to the LEDs? If so, would that normally be placed near the light board if the dimmer rack is 3' away? Then, I assume we would run DMX cable from the splitter the several feet to the LED instruments?
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What dimmer rack are you using? I assume a portable one?
If so there is likely a "DMX Out" on the dimmer rack, and thus no need for a splitter.
If so there is likely a "DMX Out" on the dimmer rack, and thus no need for a splitter.
Most of those things are actually not that close to being obsolete in my opinion. BTW I'll gladly take those Studio Spots off your hands...
Me First!!!!!!v at least you have a job... I'd second the MagicQ suggestion. Then you can use the Studio Spot to teach, and for shows.
You shouldn't need a splitter. Having one DMX out lead to your first Vivid, which has its own DMX out, connecting to another Vivid, so on and so forth. Terminate at the end, and you're ready to rock.
You have VLs. If he really decides to trash the Studio Spots, they should be sent to some technician, I don't know who (wink wink) who doesn't have access to actual MLs.
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
My recommendation is to purchase a splitter. By the time you daisy chain several units, and the dimmers, you may end up with quite a few hundred feet of cable, even in a small space, and quite a few and possibly awkwardly run cables.
The SmartFade 24/48 is actually quite powerful if you 1. update the software to the current version that allows more control and 2. run it in single scene mode versus normal two-scene mode. It will allow you access to 96 control channels, each with up to 3 or 4 addresses in each one.
MagicQ is more powerful yet, and once you are past the learning curve, the price of $00 for the software and $16 for the cheap Chamsys dongle (limited to 5 hours at a time), $100 for the better one, to $155 for the Enttec PRO USB-DMX, for the USB to DMX dongle for a computer to output the data is insignificant. Be aware, you will be limited to 1 universe, or 512 control addresses, unless you opt for the significantly more expensive Chamsys wings. On the order of $1700 and up depending on new/used, where, etc. Again, I recommend a splitter.
The SmartFade 24/48 is actually quite powerful if you 1. update the software to the current version that allows more control and 2. run it in single scene mode versus normal two-scene mode. It will allow you access to 96 control channels, each with up to 3 or 4 addresses in each one.
MagicQ is more powerful yet, and once you are past the learning curve, the price of $00 for the software and $16 for the cheap Chamsys dongle (limited to 5 hours at a time), $100 for the better one, to $155 for the Enttec PRO USB-DMX, for the USB to DMX dongle for a computer to output the data is insignificant. Be aware, you will be limited to 1 universe, or 512 control addresses, unless you opt for the significantly more expensive Chamsys wings. On the order of $1700 and up depending on new/used, where, etc. Again, I recommend a splitter.
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