Sort of a philosophical question here. Performing arts magnet HS won a sizeable grant. Audio isn't my responsibility here but one problem is there's nobody else attending to it either. We have a "media arts" department and that teacher has been reluctantly doing live audio support though it's not his skill set. I was asked to assemble the wish list for this grant. "Dream big" they said. So I threw in 20 channels of wireless, double that in MKE II elements, some Yamaha DZR12s, a Meyer array and a Digico SD9T... because that seemed pretty big... Now we won the grant and need to actually pick the gear for real. On the console end, question is do we really think an SD9T is the right thing to learn in high school? And in a high school lacking devoted and competent teaching in this area (unless my contract gets way more lucrative)? Currently they've got a Qu-32, so this represents a big transition. I haven't even touched Digico before. My prior work has been on LS9, M7CL, M32/X32, Pro2, SC48. This'll be mostly theatre use. What would your "money is no object" choice be to make available to high schoolers? Train them on a Broadway desk or train them on what they're more likely to see at their first job/college program? All this assuming somebody starts training them at all; I could also just ask for a budget modification to shift the money to scenic/rigging/lighting and nobody would shed a tear.
What console would you buy for HS theatre?
- Thread starterColin
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SD9T in a high school -- absolutely wouldn't. I would lean more toward Yamaha CL, maybe DM7 -- but DM7 is far more horsepower than you need. There are other brands that would be fine as well, but Digico desks are near impossible for students to understand. The level of complexity makes it extremely difficult for students to actually learn the basic concepts of signal flow, processing, and mixing.
Yamaha is good because QL/CL/Rivage/DM are all very consistent in their workflow across the different models. They're easy desks to learn -- if you learn on a CL you can easily step in front of the other desks in the lineup with a few minutes to acclimate to where certain knobs are -- there are also a ton of QL/CL desks out there in the wild so that experience for the students will be widely applicable -- even if someone is stepping in front of a desk from Allen & Heath, Soundcraft, or anyone else. The basic workflow of Yamaha is a great stepping stone for students to learn from and take that experience elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong -- Digico is top tier -- but in a high school environment it will be crippling for students to learn and effectively operate. If they spend all their energy just trying to navigate the desk before they even understand how to a mix a show or EQ some mic's during soundcheck, whatever experience they may get from that will be near worthless anywhere else. Digico is first and foremost a desk for festivals, professional touring acts, Broadway-like venues, and broadcast. It's highly unlikely any of your students would graduate and ever find themselves in front of one ever again -- and if they do, it'll be 5-10 years down the road.
But before you lock in on anything, try to get a really strong sense of the full scope. You're probably talking more power, more cabling, network switches, new infrastructure, maybe new structural points for rigging. I don't know how comprehensive your pricing on that first wave of equipment proposals was, but I'd really make sure all of the gaps are filled in before you commit to high-end equipment that's probably more than you practically need. I would also make sure that if you were just spitballing the Meyer array, that you have an actual acoustical model of the space made and have someone validate the design, coverage, aiming -- using EASE and not just their MAPP software. The best sounding speakers in the world aren't worth very much if they don't provide full and balanced coverage. There will also be other costs associated with the initial sound system installation, rigging hardware, tuning, programming, etc. If a bunch of these factors were part of your original pricing, awesome! But if not, you may end up throwing all those initial part numbers out as you zoom out from the products and capture the other components, labor, materials, and infrastructure necessary to support the overall system.
Yamaha is good because QL/CL/Rivage/DM are all very consistent in their workflow across the different models. They're easy desks to learn -- if you learn on a CL you can easily step in front of the other desks in the lineup with a few minutes to acclimate to where certain knobs are -- there are also a ton of QL/CL desks out there in the wild so that experience for the students will be widely applicable -- even if someone is stepping in front of a desk from Allen & Heath, Soundcraft, or anyone else. The basic workflow of Yamaha is a great stepping stone for students to learn from and take that experience elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong -- Digico is top tier -- but in a high school environment it will be crippling for students to learn and effectively operate. If they spend all their energy just trying to navigate the desk before they even understand how to a mix a show or EQ some mic's during soundcheck, whatever experience they may get from that will be near worthless anywhere else. Digico is first and foremost a desk for festivals, professional touring acts, Broadway-like venues, and broadcast. It's highly unlikely any of your students would graduate and ever find themselves in front of one ever again -- and if they do, it'll be 5-10 years down the road.
But before you lock in on anything, try to get a really strong sense of the full scope. You're probably talking more power, more cabling, network switches, new infrastructure, maybe new structural points for rigging. I don't know how comprehensive your pricing on that first wave of equipment proposals was, but I'd really make sure all of the gaps are filled in before you commit to high-end equipment that's probably more than you practically need. I would also make sure that if you were just spitballing the Meyer array, that you have an actual acoustical model of the space made and have someone validate the design, coverage, aiming -- using EASE and not just their MAPP software. The best sounding speakers in the world aren't worth very much if they don't provide full and balanced coverage. There will also be other costs associated with the initial sound system installation, rigging hardware, tuning, programming, etc. If a bunch of these factors were part of your original pricing, awesome! But if not, you may end up throwing all those initial part numbers out as you zoom out from the products and capture the other components, labor, materials, and infrastructure necessary to support the overall system.
Yes. Before you do anything hire an acoustic consultant to analyze the room, design a system that actually sounds good in your space, and the pay to have the room tuned once it's all installed. You may need a full Meyer array or that may sound terrible in your space. There is only one way to know. Hire a consultant. I know a great guy here in Washington. Or contact Mike CB's resident consultant. I'm sure if you are too far away for @MNicolai to do it himself he can help you find someone in your area.
Lighting:
I have an ETC Gio@5. With two external touch screens In my high school PAC. It's been around a few years but that set up would still be my top choice for a high school. A small ETC Apex is probably twice the price and would be amazing, but you REALLY don't need it. I would much rather put that money into fixtures.
Depending on your expertise you should consider a consultant for your lighting system too. Design a good rep plot for the room that really meets the needs of what your theater does. Then build a dimmer, relay, dmx network, light board, and fixture SYSTEM. A complete package designed to fit your actual show needs.
Also I've been banging this drum for years. If the facility doesn't have a technical staff you shouldn't be buying movers. They are expensive to operate and maintain. If there's no budget for a person to run the faculty's tech needs what will happen when you need $500 in repairs? Who is going to spend the MANY hours to program those movers? It takes a lot of time. I'm a proponent of overkill on your rep plot and LED fixtures and just a few movers for fun. Especially if there's no tech staff. There are too many high schools out there with expensive gear in a closet because the $150 bulb died, nobody knows how to fix it, or nobody knows how to hook it up.
Lighting:
I have an ETC Gio@5. With two external touch screens In my high school PAC. It's been around a few years but that set up would still be my top choice for a high school. A small ETC Apex is probably twice the price and would be amazing, but you REALLY don't need it. I would much rather put that money into fixtures.
Depending on your expertise you should consider a consultant for your lighting system too. Design a good rep plot for the room that really meets the needs of what your theater does. Then build a dimmer, relay, dmx network, light board, and fixture SYSTEM. A complete package designed to fit your actual show needs.
Also I've been banging this drum for years. If the facility doesn't have a technical staff you shouldn't be buying movers. They are expensive to operate and maintain. If there's no budget for a person to run the faculty's tech needs what will happen when you need $500 in repairs? Who is going to spend the MANY hours to program those movers? It takes a lot of time. I'm a proponent of overkill on your rep plot and LED fixtures and just a few movers for fun. Especially if there's no tech staff. There are too many high schools out there with expensive gear in a closet because the $150 bulb died, nobody knows how to fix it, or nobody knows how to hook it up.
Alright, so far pretty much what I expected on the Digico front. I'd enjoy getting to know one myself, but in this building that's not my circus. Yeah the console and loudspeakers are total spitballing/placeholding for the grant application. The grant writer sprung this on me with two days til deadline so I wound up throwing in some silly stuff, like they wanted "real" prices for everything so I sent them a Sweetwater link for a Meyer array
. Yes guys, experts will design and install all the things I'm not expert enough to do myself. But I'm expert enough to do a lot of things. Not your average high school, and not your average high school staff; there's just the hole I described in live audio production/instruction right now which adds some uncertainty to how much complexity is warranted in a new system. I'm still interested in more hot takes on the best (and worst) mixing desk for a performing arts high school - one where students spend half their day working within chosen majors like acting, dance, music, technical theater, media arts... Looking for age/experience appropriate, in a place with high standards maintained by teachers who are industry pros before choosing teaching.
. Yes guys, experts will design and install all the things I'm not expert enough to do myself. But I'm expert enough to do a lot of things. Not your average high school, and not your average high school staff; there's just the hole I described in live audio production/instruction right now which adds some uncertainty to how much complexity is warranted in a new system. I'm still interested in more hot takes on the best (and worst) mixing desk for a performing arts high school - one where students spend half their day working within chosen majors like acting, dance, music, technical theater, media arts... Looking for age/experience appropriate, in a place with high standards maintained by teachers who are industry pros before choosing teaching.
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I feel like this story needs elaboration with pictures...
I've got quotes coming for Ion XE20 and the @5. Leaning towards the latter, cost difference unknown, but was thinking about just one touchscreen for the @5, and one of our existing non-touch when we want a second external. I use two touchscreens a lot with an Ion, but with Gio am thinking I can be happy with one plus the onboard, since the second external may only be showing cue list etc, not needing touch. You find you use both yours a lot?
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You can never have enough screen real estate! get a couple of Dell's to add on and you wont be sorry.
The way I'm set up, using the built in touch screen is inconvenient. I have the external touch screens on arms (one on each side) which makes them much closer to me and easier to work with. I leave the main cue list on the built in screen and put a heavily customized magic sheet on one screen and my color picker, Augment3d, and ML properties on the other screen. The beauty of multiple touch screens is you have infinite flexibility.
When I bought it, the key reason to go with the Gio@5 over the Ion was the number of universes and channels. I could get a base Gio@5 for not a lot more than an upgraded Ion and have lots of room to expand later.
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manuallyfocused
Active Member
Philosophically-speaking, does your program have space/budget/use cases to keep multiple consoles in inventory? My money-is-no-object choice would be not to limit yourself to one primary console- take advantage of the opportunity to get your students' hands on as many different types of gear as you can, as long as the educational support is there for it. Bleeding edge top-of-the-line is nice, but I'd go for multiple previous-generation units that they will see in the small-to-midrange venues they'll likely encounter immediately after graduating.
Our high school (private 9-12 grade, approx. 360 students) has several multi-use spaces and often multiple simultaneous setups, so it's been very beneficial on the audio side to build an inventory of boards that can cover different-sized events, and having a variety of console platforms allows the students to apply the same concepts on different hardware. We started by purchasing a Behringer X32, then an A&H SQ6, and an A&H iLive system (2 surfaces, 3 mixracks + extender) that we hope to upgrade soon to the Yamaha DM7 or A&H dLive (for FOH, we'd keep an iLive for monitors and do a Dante digital split). We also have several analog boards, so when I want to do an audio "petting zoo" I can show students the same thing in four different ways using all of our hardware, and one day when we have the Dante network implemented I might be able to do a true festival setup where I can have my students use the different consoles for different acts. It's worth noting that we're also moving to a QSYS core for our entire facility emergency PA (including a dedicated unit for our auditorium system), so system tuning, speaker processing, and basic operation (single mic for lecture-type events) will be handled separately from any console we'd connect in any of our spaces.
A related note: One big plus of this particular console combination is that all of them are compatible with the Mixing Station app (iLive was just added last month!), so even if the physical control infrastructure is wildly different we can still have a uniform interface for remote control so any of my stagecraft students can grab a tablet and be comfortable with basic operation regardless of which console is running the show. Sadly, this won't be true if we add the DM7, but if we go dLive instead we would stay within that infrastructure.
On the lighting side, we have an ETC Ion XE20 with two touchscreens as our primary console (and a Nomad that can run EOS or Hog, and an Ion Classic, see a pattern here?) but I just picked up an MA2 OnPC Command Wing to have some of the same variety as audio world, and also as an excuse to teach myself MA
. Now I guess I need to go find a Chamsys and an Avolites unit?
Our high school (private 9-12 grade, approx. 360 students) has several multi-use spaces and often multiple simultaneous setups, so it's been very beneficial on the audio side to build an inventory of boards that can cover different-sized events, and having a variety of console platforms allows the students to apply the same concepts on different hardware. We started by purchasing a Behringer X32, then an A&H SQ6, and an A&H iLive system (2 surfaces, 3 mixracks + extender) that we hope to upgrade soon to the Yamaha DM7 or A&H dLive (for FOH, we'd keep an iLive for monitors and do a Dante digital split). We also have several analog boards, so when I want to do an audio "petting zoo" I can show students the same thing in four different ways using all of our hardware, and one day when we have the Dante network implemented I might be able to do a true festival setup where I can have my students use the different consoles for different acts. It's worth noting that we're also moving to a QSYS core for our entire facility emergency PA (including a dedicated unit for our auditorium system), so system tuning, speaker processing, and basic operation (single mic for lecture-type events) will be handled separately from any console we'd connect in any of our spaces.
A related note: One big plus of this particular console combination is that all of them are compatible with the Mixing Station app (iLive was just added last month!), so even if the physical control infrastructure is wildly different we can still have a uniform interface for remote control so any of my stagecraft students can grab a tablet and be comfortable with basic operation regardless of which console is running the show. Sadly, this won't be true if we add the DM7, but if we go dLive instead we would stay within that infrastructure.
On the lighting side, we have an ETC Ion XE20 with two touchscreens as our primary console (and a Nomad that can run EOS or Hog, and an Ion Classic, see a pattern here?) but I just picked up an MA2 OnPC Command Wing to have some of the same variety as audio world, and also as an excuse to teach myself MA
. Now I guess I need to go find a Chamsys and an Avolites unit?
Am a fan of A&H. The Avantis runs essentially the same software and has slightly less I/O than the flagship dLive, but at a reduced price. For HS students Allen and Heath's OS is very approachable and like Mike said, they'll have no problems walking into other similar mixers knowing the workflow on those consoles.