Probably the first of several posts to help me make decisions on spending my portion of a $2.7M facilities grant we recently won. Full replacement of lighting rig, tungsten to LED and so forth. Looking for your current favorites for theatre/dance movers: CMY, variable CTO, framing (for some at least), quiet, 20'-40' throws. Let's assume money is no object. Size/weight is though; all fixed hanging positions over the sides of catwalks, so looking at either motors robust enough for sideways hanging, or adding some pipe to get them vertical, and either way they need to be handled either by two people through a catwalk railing, or one person in our AWP. Because I only had two days notice from our grant writer, I just threw 15 SolaFrame Theatres in the proposal, knowing they're too massive for us but carve out a nice budget. Diablo? Lonestar? Halcyon?...
Theatrical Mover Recommendations
- Thread starterColin
- Start date
Elation Fuze Profile, or Fuze Max Profile, depending on how much output you need. But the Fuze Profile is a great little fixture for this application.
https://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-profile
But, do a shootout of any and all options. And of course, there may be new and better options by the time you get to make the purchase, so keep that in mind as well.
Want ultra-silent like the HES Sola Frame Theatre, but much lower weight, quieter performance, higher output, better quality of light and lower price? Fuze Teatro
https://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-teatro
https://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-profile
But, do a shootout of any and all options. And of course, there may be new and better options by the time you get to make the purchase, so keep that in mind as well.
Want ultra-silent like the HES Sola Frame Theatre, but much lower weight, quieter performance, higher output, better quality of light and lower price? Fuze Teatro
https://www.elationlighting.com/fuze-teatro
Ditto on the Fuze series. The Sola Frames are loud and heavy.
In fact, I'd get a dozen of each fixture under consideration and power them all up and LISTEN. ALL THAT FAN NOISE is in EVERY body mic. The noise spewed by these types of fixtures has raised the noise floor by at least 15dB in the last 10 years.
Director: "we need more dialog". Sound person: "okay, I'll turn it up." Director: "we need more dialog, we can't understand the words." Sound person: "it's the noise from the lights, remove them from the plot and you'll understand the dialog again."
urban79
Active Member
I am trying to arrange a shootout in our space, and I'm curious how anyone in the public sector has dealt with the idea that we need competitive bids as far as bringing a company into do a shoot out... It feels like it would be weird to ask a company to bring in several fixtures and then go with another company that gives a lower bid, but that's the situation I'm in...
Lonestar may be a good choice depending on output needs. Fairly quiet, cost-effective, and comes with shutters. May not cut through a bright stage wash but that really depends on how you would plan on using them. Hyperstar is basically the same fixture without framing shutters if you're looking for a mixed package.
Halcyon -- these have a lot more horsepower and will bring some noise (I saw them a couple weeks ago but wasn't paying too much attention to the noise levels so I can't comment on that much more) -- but just about any fixture with their output intensity will do that. The prisms, frost, and animation wheels can bring some interesting options to the table for bringing more texture and movement to a production's lighting design.
Be mindful as part of your grant process that you're taking controls and distribution into account. Any of these fixtures bring a footprint of 50-60 DMX channels so if you're getting 15, that's 2 full universes of outputs which you should account for in your control console's capacity as well as your DMX distribution and topology. So going from full tungsten to full LED and upgrading static fixtures as well, you can easily saturate the 2048 limit of a base Ion XE -- and practically speaking, you could find yourself with spaghetti DMX runs if you aren't set up for several independent universes in your broader DMX distribution so none of your branches end up exceeding 512 channels. Some CAT6 infrastructure and portable gateways may be your friend.
Halcyon -- these have a lot more horsepower and will bring some noise (I saw them a couple weeks ago but wasn't paying too much attention to the noise levels so I can't comment on that much more) -- but just about any fixture with their output intensity will do that. The prisms, frost, and animation wheels can bring some interesting options to the table for bringing more texture and movement to a production's lighting design.
Be mindful as part of your grant process that you're taking controls and distribution into account. Any of these fixtures bring a footprint of 50-60 DMX channels so if you're getting 15, that's 2 full universes of outputs which you should account for in your control console's capacity as well as your DMX distribution and topology. So going from full tungsten to full LED and upgrading static fixtures as well, you can easily saturate the 2048 limit of a base Ion XE -- and practically speaking, you could find yourself with spaghetti DMX runs if you aren't set up for several independent universes in your broader DMX distribution so none of your branches end up exceeding 512 channels. Some CAT6 infrastructure and portable gateways may be your friend.
This is going to depend on which Solaframe fixture you're dealing with. 750/1000/300 are going to be louder -- more than twice as loud as the Theatre fixtures. The 750/1000/3000 have been discontinued and evolved into the newer Halcyon series but the Studio/Theatre remain active products, in part, because of their quiet operation -- though their output is certainly less than Halcyon. They are, of course, still heavy, but larger heatsinks for fanless operation will have that consequence. That's the practical tradeoff for reducing noise levels.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
2 things to check out:
1. The new Elation Fuze Teatro. The Elation Fuze line has some gaps in the color engine - but it's only gaps that show up in the rock on roll side of things, it's colors I pretty much never reached for in theatre or dance. The additive engine also gets to colors that CMY just can't even think of reproducing. The Elation Product Dev team has been cranking out some really good stuff.
2. The new Chauvet Maverick Silens 2X Profile if you want subtractive mixing. @Ben Dickmann and @Michael Graham really put a lot of work in to those things.
It's a great time to be looking for new theatrical movers.
For hanging: You will want to add sidearms to underhang vs. outrigging off the positions. I would definitely suggest the Light Source "Super Mega Side Arm" or the big version of the Safer SideArms from City Theatrical, the kind that use steel 1-1/2" pipe. I would also suggest using Doughty-style gripper clamps or some Light Source TC clamps to make hanging from the catwalk or lift easier.
1. The new Elation Fuze Teatro. The Elation Fuze line has some gaps in the color engine - but it's only gaps that show up in the rock on roll side of things, it's colors I pretty much never reached for in theatre or dance. The additive engine also gets to colors that CMY just can't even think of reproducing. The Elation Product Dev team has been cranking out some really good stuff.
2. The new Chauvet Maverick Silens 2X Profile if you want subtractive mixing. @Ben Dickmann and @Michael Graham really put a lot of work in to those things.
It's a great time to be looking for new theatrical movers.
For hanging: You will want to add sidearms to underhang vs. outrigging off the positions. I would definitely suggest the Light Source "Super Mega Side Arm" or the big version of the Safer SideArms from City Theatrical, the kind that use steel 1-1/2" pipe. I would also suggest using Doughty-style gripper clamps or some Light Source TC clamps to make hanging from the catwalk or lift easier.
Ford
Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional
chawalang
Well-Known Member
Check with a local rental house/production company about what they have in their current inventory. You may be able to go to the shop and have them arrange a shoot out for you. Or they could bring a bunch of fixtures to your venue. You may even be able to purchase you lighting fixtures through them. If all else fails, you may want to reach out to a theatre consultant to see if they can guide you. The point of the consultant is that they should be agnostic on the manufacturer, they are looking out for the users best interest.
For what it’s worth if a manufacturer wants to “wine and dine you” they will make it easy for you to get a hold of their product and check it out. You are the one spending money, give them a reason, to give you a reason, to purchase their gear.
For what it’s worth if a manufacturer wants to “wine and dine you” they will make it easy for you to get a hold of their product and check it out. You are the one spending money, give them a reason, to give you a reason, to purchase their gear.
Unlike the 'future safety' of buying Source 4s back in the day, almost any robotic fixture will be obsolete by the time you have them hanging in the air and designers will want something newer within about 3-5 years. If you don't have to make outside designers happy, you'll have longer useful life and more say about brands and models.
I'm serious about demo'ing fixtures in multiples of each model to get an idea of the noises they make, whether fans or servos or toothed belts on gears. Some versions of similarly named units are louder than others (Sola, looking at you and thanking @MNicolai for the reminder of the differences).
The *spectrum* of fan noise is important, too. What I've noticed at my A1 ballroom gig is the movers and LED fixtures with fans have almost as much noise floor contribution as the HVAC system, but a couple octaves higher in range. For concert-type gigs it's not so much an issue but for charity events, society events, and meeting/presentation use the combination of noise from 60Hz up to about 1.k2 can be a problem. Combine a stage full of midrange noise makers and actors no longer trained in voice projection and there will be more artistic issues created by one department with the expectation the problem is remediated by another department. Bah AND humbug.
I'm serious about demo'ing fixtures in multiples of each model to get an idea of the noises they make, whether fans or servos or toothed belts on gears. Some versions of similarly named units are louder than others (Sola, looking at you and thanking @MNicolai for the reminder of the differences).
The *spectrum* of fan noise is important, too. What I've noticed at my A1 ballroom gig is the movers and LED fixtures with fans have almost as much noise floor contribution as the HVAC system, but a couple octaves higher in range. For concert-type gigs it's not so much an issue but for charity events, society events, and meeting/presentation use the combination of noise from 60Hz up to about 1.k2 can be a problem. Combine a stage full of midrange noise makers and actors no longer trained in voice projection and there will be more artistic issues created by one department with the expectation the problem is remediated by another department. Bah AND humbug.
Don't worry about it. This is a common occurrence, and manufacturers have ways to protect the dealer that did the demo for you.
For ETC and Varilite, you can go a step above a dealer and get the regional product reps who can help arrange this. These reps work with territories, so for example, we have Sesco Lighting here in Florida and sales of ETC products flow through them whether it comes from Dealer A or Dealer B. We have another rep for VL -- similar setup. If in doubt, go straight to ETC/Chauvet/VL/etc, and they'll do a lot of the heavy lifting for you. Either way, nobody gets offended. They may bring equipment to you, or they may invite you to a local dealer or nearest showroom. If there's a recently completed project down the street, they may also reach out to them and see if you can get a few minutes with someone else's rig in action that's a stone's throw from you.
If you work directly with a dealer so you can see multiple brands at once, those dealers know how the game is played -- though it's common courtesy to give them a heads-up that you know the project will eventually have to go for competitive bid. Lots of stage lighting sales are to public institutions (high schools, civic centers, etc.) so they will not be egregiously offended -- it's just nice for them to know upfront.
Try to avoid fine-tuning a quote with one vendor over several revisions and then end up sending it out to 3-4 other dealers. Don't share pricing between dealers or make them bid against each other -- when you have the equipment package finalized, put it in an Excel sheet, throw a notice of RFP (Request for Proposal) on it (double-checking with any procurement office/rules your institution may have -- they often have a standard template for this). Then you send that off to everyone at the same time, give them 3-4 weeks or whatever your procurement rules require, and have a firm end date that bids need to received by. When the bids come in, you award it to one of the bidders, and then you can usually still fine-tune any modifications if you need to make adjustments due to budget. As part of this process, ask for itemized pricing with the bids -- that makes any adjustments near the end more transparent.
This way everyone is bidding off the same list, in the same timeframe, with no contradictions where any vendor could feel like they're not receiving the same fairness as any other vendor.
Demo's aren't inherently unfair or a burden to ask for. You shouldn't feel like you're pulling the rug out from under a dealer by asking for them prior to an RFP so long as you're maintaining a transparent bid process once you're ready to move forward with distributing the RFP for final bidding.
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Also important to note. As long as you maintain the transparency that @MNicolai referred to, most vendors will give a special pricing advantage to the first group to register the project, which would be the ones that are doing your demos. No one else would know about it. That both protects them and gives them the best chance of winning your bid. Everyone wins.
Malabaristo
Well-Known Member
Another comment on "competitive" bidding is that it's kind of a relative term. Nothing says* you can't ask for bids from places you know will be more expensive if there's a specific dealer you want to favor for good reasons. For example, the big mail order companies (Guitar Center, Full Compass, & so forth) tend to sell around MSRP without the sort of discounts that a more specialized dealer can take advantage of. Also, most purchasing requirements will have exceptions for special cases that can be considered regardless of cost. If one dealer is 20 miles away and the next closest are hundreds of miles out, then the ability to get local service may outweigh a slightly higher cost.
Obviously you shouldn't try to actually cheat the system, but it's important to understand that it's set up for things that usually have more reasonable levels of competition. If you only have two local theatrical dealers and one of them has a terrible reputation for service, you don't want to get stuck dealing with them on the support side later just because the purchase price was a bit lower.
*There may be cases where projects above a certain dollar amount require a different bidding process (other than just letting you pick your own three vendors at random). Make sure you understand your specific purchasing rules before trying to push any limits to better fit your needs.
Obviously you shouldn't try to actually cheat the system, but it's important to understand that it's set up for things that usually have more reasonable levels of competition. If you only have two local theatrical dealers and one of them has a terrible reputation for service, you don't want to get stuck dealing with them on the support side later just because the purchase price was a bit lower.
*There may be cases where projects above a certain dollar amount require a different bidding process (other than just letting you pick your own three vendors at random). Make sure you understand your specific purchasing rules before trying to push any limits to better fit your needs.
Stuart R
Member
These sorts of replies are exactly what make ControlBooth worth its weight in gold. [If it weighed as much as a real control booth... never mind.] It sounds like OP Colin got some good advice. Break a leg with your demos!
We too are looking for movers but don't have an unlimited budget situation. We're a small high school theatre with poor (short and/or shallow) throw angles and a hodge-podge of fixtures. We just got an Ion Xe and are looking to complete the tungsten->LED switch. All that's left to replace are 16 Altman Q65 6" fresnels, and 14 ETC Source4 Jr zoom ellipsoidals. I love the Chavet Pro Ovation F-415FC as a functional fresnel, and am considering the ColorSource Spot Jr to replace the Source4 Jrs.
However, the school just had an event company come in to do graduation in our gym and their rig had nothing but moving head profiles and washes and everyone from my principal to my lighting students are saying "THAT's what we need!" I'm struggling a bit in how to explain to them that achieving a working theatrical lighting system is not as simple as replacing our entire mixed 100 fixture inventory with a dozen strategically placed moving spots and a dozen moving washes and simply having them pivot from moment to moment to where the action is.
Am I right, or should we in fact replace a chunk of the departing fixtures with moving lights? Even if that's a good idea, we're limited in how many DMX channels the IonXe can accommodate, and while our budget of $30-$35k can more or less handle some new Ovations and ColorSource Spots, that's only going to buy a handful of moving lights (unless I'm unaware of some budget movers - i.e. under $3k - that aren't junk).
What would you do? Thanks.
We too are looking for movers but don't have an unlimited budget situation. We're a small high school theatre with poor (short and/or shallow) throw angles and a hodge-podge of fixtures. We just got an Ion Xe and are looking to complete the tungsten->LED switch. All that's left to replace are 16 Altman Q65 6" fresnels, and 14 ETC Source4 Jr zoom ellipsoidals. I love the Chavet Pro Ovation F-415FC as a functional fresnel, and am considering the ColorSource Spot Jr to replace the Source4 Jrs.
However, the school just had an event company come in to do graduation in our gym and their rig had nothing but moving head profiles and washes and everyone from my principal to my lighting students are saying "THAT's what we need!" I'm struggling a bit in how to explain to them that achieving a working theatrical lighting system is not as simple as replacing our entire mixed 100 fixture inventory with a dozen strategically placed moving spots and a dozen moving washes and simply having them pivot from moment to moment to where the action is.
Am I right, or should we in fact replace a chunk of the departing fixtures with moving lights? Even if that's a good idea, we're limited in how many DMX channels the IonXe can accommodate, and while our budget of $30-$35k can more or less handle some new Ovations and ColorSource Spots, that's only going to buy a handful of moving lights (unless I'm unaware of some budget movers - i.e. under $3k - that aren't junk).
What would you do? Thanks.
The Ministars are interesting. Not super expensive and under 40lbs, but they have a couple caveats. Namely, the color mixing isn't CMY so anytime you change the colors, the fixture goes black for a moment (fraction of a second) in Blink Mode. Unlike Lonestar, Halycon, and some of the other fixtures mentioned in this thread, also no framing shutters (not to be expected for the price). Neither of those are deal breakers but it's important to know that before you buy. However, with the color system you can do color splits in quadrants for multicolor effects (see page 14 for the color macros list), so it's really a different type of paint brush.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
I would focus more on having a nice static wash that can handle most of your needs first. Then if you have the budget you could add a couple of moving profiles to let you do specials. And then if you need more movers you can always rent them for a specific show.
Programming complexity for students aside -- that also eliminates a ton of opportunities for students to be hands-on with fixtures. That's something I bring up whenever a project budget gets thin and they start looking at axing the followspots -- that's two fewer positions for students on tech crew. So consolidating most of the hands-on lighting experience just to the single person at the lighting console has its downsides in a learning environment.
That really depends on what your current balance of fixtures is that you've already upgraded and the size of space you're trying to light. If your budget was $150k, I'd have a different opinion because swapping out something like 2-3 CS Spots for Lonestar gives you a lot flexibility in terms of effects and specials. You can justify it by not having to keep as many static profiles in your inventory if you have a single mover cover the needs of what would otherwise be 3-4 specials. But if you're already budget-limited down to CS Spot Jr's or equivalents, swapping out 3-4 of those for Ministar, or worse, ~7 for Lonestar...gets a lot closer to cutting into muscle.
I'm using ETC part #'s because that's what I have most readily in my head for price points and tradeoffs, but it's similar calculus with other vendors. There comes a point where if you have to use the lowest cost options available and the movers just aren't bright enough -- you'll end up not using them -- or nobody will even be able to tell they're in use -- and you also risk having fixtures that may only last a few years. Unless you have the money to spend on a handful (probably no less than 4, but more like 8) sufficiently bright and reliable ML's, there's risk of effectively throwing that money away compared to getting punchier static fixtures that'll last you more like 7-10 years. So unless your other bases in your lighting inventory are already really well covered, I would be cautious. Also, from a design perspective, if you can only afford a couple, what you can actually do with them is very limited. You can use them as specials but anything involving effects -- two just doesn't cut it. And as soon as the first one breaks, now you just have one oddball fixture left in your inventory that it's hard to effectively use anywhere in a design.
I'd also say that if you don't have a hazer, you would want to factor that into the budget too. Much of the value you can get from having movers comes from atmospherics and having a good stock of fluid. Buying the boat and then not having gas to take it out on the water and show it off would be very limiting in terms of the amount of value you actually would get out of that investment.
You absolutely need to see a shoot out in your venue. It's impossible to know if a fixture will meet your needs without seeing it in your space. My top two choices are the Elation Fuse and the Chauvet Silenz mentioned above. Both are excellent fixtures, similar features and pricing. But without seeing it in your space you won't know which is best for you.
If you need help setting up the shootout send a private message to our CB friends @Ford (Chauvet) and @rsmentele (Elation) I'm sure they can help you.
If you need help setting up the shootout send a private message to our CB friends @Ford (Chauvet) and @rsmentele (Elation) I'm sure they can help you.